The Lift 002 | Collaborative Supervisory Relationships

Dr. Tyra Sellers (00:00):

Hi, everybody. Welcome to The Lift. I'm Tyra, and I'm here with:

Dr. Linda LeBlanc (00:19):

Linda LeBlanc.

Dr. Tyra Sellers (00:20):

Welcome, everyone. Today we're going to be talking about content from chapter two, from our book "Building and sustaining meaningful and effective relationships as a supervisor and mentor". We're really going to be focusing on content related to developing collaborative supervisory relationships that can proceed in a healthy way for both parties. I'm really excited about this content, Linda.

Dr. Linda LeBlanc (00:47):

Me too, me too. This idea that we explore in this theme about bi-directional collaborative efforts between the supervisor and supervisee as being part of what it's going to let that supervisory relationship blossom. I think it is one of the more important things of the book. It's got to go both ways in order for it to be a healthy relationship.

Dr. Tyra Sellers (01:14):

I agree, and I think let's start with the quote from that chapter, which is by Erica Oppenheimer and that quote reads: "Without a solid foundation, you'll have trouble creating anything of value". I think that really sums up sort of the first several chapters of the book. The idea is if you don't know a little bit about yourself, if you don't know a little bit about why you are having these supervisory or mentorship relationships and that if you're not creating space for the supervisee or trainee to think about and have these conversations with you, you're likely not setting that solid foundation. So let's start by talking a little bit about where that framework of viewing supervision or mentorship or coaching, fill in the blank whatever you want to say, as a relationship as opposed to just a transaction or some part of your job. Where did that come from, Linda?

Dr. Linda LeBlanc (02:08):

Well, I think that as we were working together at Trumpet building tons of clinical systems, whether it was for onboarding supervision competencies, we really began to observe that people who were succeeding in this role as supervisor manager leader, they had this ability to stay calm and be nice. Right? We could certainly teach them some other specific skills, but the one that was hardest to change, if it wasn't already there, was the notion that you have to care about the other person, and you've got to let that show. This is kind of that get more honey than vinegar, right? That really informed the article that we wrote in 2016 on recommended practices for supervision and the one on repairing and identifying broken relationships in supervision and how that can really negatively influence performance. I think people don't always realize how closely connected the quality of the relationship and the quality of the performance of the supervisee are.

Dr. Tyra Sellers (03:41):

Yeah, I think that's absolutely right. I remember as we were working on those articles together, and then also with our colleague, Dr. Amber Valentino, really sort of talking about all of our experiences. Where you had people that had fantastic clinical skills, so bright, but really just struggling to support the folks that they were supervising, to have effective training relationships. I think that is where we realized that folks were maybe not getting this content in their coursework. Maybe they weren't having a structured experience in their supervised field work hours that folded in supervision as a relationship. The importance of bi-directional feedback. The idea that this should be collaborative. They may not have had that experience, so they are then not likely to start behaving that way. They're more likely to engage in what was modeled for them and their supervisory experiences. I think your 2015 article on how important it was to look back at your influences and your mentors and that we all should spend some time doing that because we are the sum total of all of our experiences and doing so gives us a little bit of control. It may be revealed to us that we have some behaviors in our repertoires that aren't really in line with how we want to be because of what we've experienced in the past. And if we don't reflect on it, we can't be purposeful and make some change around those things. I think that idea that you have to look back at what you've experienced and then decide what you want to bring to the table for other individuals was a starting point for us.

Dr. Linda LeBlanc (05:33):

Absolutely. I think people are often unaware of the risks. If they're not approaching supervision in a collaborative way, and both parties don't feel respected, valued, and acknowledged. Often the phrase you hear is people say, "I don't like them", or, "They don't like me". They think it's about liking and it's not. It is about respecting, valuing and acknowledging what someone wants and expects to get from supervision and what you want and expect them to do as part of the learning experience. I think that if you don't start strong and get to know each other as colleagues, professionals, then you're going to have some things sneak up on you. I think in times when I've had to step in to try to facilitate, or maybe even to go over as a supervisor. I was quickly able to detect that there had never been a discussion about expectations and that the supervisee clearly wanted to get some things from supervision, but they never felt like they had an opportunity to say that. And didn't know that they could say that, or perhaps it had been indirectly indicated by the supervisor that they were in charge of this business. They were going to be the one with the input and what have you. And I mean, the risk is that the experience really goes off the rails and that everybody's pretty unhappy or that nobody learns anything from it.

Dr. Tyra Sellers (07:40):

Or at the very least they're not maximizing and they may be learning some non-optimal repertoires, right? Responding away from instead of towards difficult conversations and things like that. One of the risks for me, I often think, I really like to wander, I'd like to go to a new city and just get a little bit lost and that's fine because that is me by myself and I have set this expectation that I'm just going to explore. If I'm with someone else or if I need to get some certain things done, it's best not to just show up to a city wander around and hope that I happen upon the right stores to get my to-do list done. Right? I have a plan, I have a map, I have a list. I might even have some time expectations. I think another risk of not approaching it in that collaborative way is you are not going to have a shared map for how to get to where you want to go and what sorts of cool things you want to see along the way. Right?

Dr. Linda LeBlanc (08:44):

I like that analogy. I love that analogy. I was just going to say to you, I think one of things that is a tremendous strength of yours is comfort in skills with respect to feedback in both directions. Giving, receiving. Tell me a little bit about how you have a set of situations for feedback to go both ways.

Dr. Tyra Sellers (09:20):

First of all, thank you. It's not even 8:30 AM and I'm already blushing. That was such a nice compliment. Likewise, all of the same things back to you around feedback. If I am skilled at all, part of it is likely due to your mentorship, your modeling, the feedback you've given to me. Which means both the nice, fun and feel good stuff, as well as times when I need to be told something more difficult. I think for me, I never had the idea that feedback was something bad, something to be feared or something to not want. Now, that's not to say I haven't experienced punishing feedback or feedback wielded in a way that wasn't really meant to improve my performance, but was meant to put me in my place or make me feel bad. I have experienced that, but that's more about the feedback giver, not feedback itself. Feedback is a beautiful, wonderful, glorious thing. All it is, is information about one's performance that can change their future performance in a desirable way. Do more of the thing, do less of the thing, do this other thing instead of that thing. I think it's important to start talking about feedback right from the get-go and talk about it in a positive way. Talk about why it's valuable, talk about what it's going to look like. Talk about what it's going to feel like. Ask the supervisee or the trainee, what their experience has been with feedback. Find out what you need to do to adjust your feedback style and the parameters of the feedback that you're giving to make it effective for that person. Talk about the fact that you're doing that you have to tact those things for your supervisees and trainees, because not only are you wanting to give effective feedback to them, but you want them to understand the discriminations that you are making around your feedback delivery, as well as your feedback reception, because you want them to be giving you feedback.

Dr. Linda LeBlanc (11:20):

That's the bi-directional part, right? They probably expect to get some feedback, but the notion that the supervisor also needs them to give some feedback on the clarity of the experience, the degree to which the supervisee is getting what they need. Take your analogy of exploring a city with a map and a list. If you're actually getting feedback from the supervisee about how much they are benefiting, or when they are benefiting or not benefiting from your instruction, then it takes it to GPS. As you are behaving, you are actually getting some feedback about whether you're getting closer to that destination.

Dr. Tyra Sellers (12:12):

And you may be getting feedback about your path is fine, but if you take this path, it'll get you there a little more efficiently and you might be able to see some other cool stuff along the way. In those conversations, I definitely talk about that. Feedback is not a one-way street. It's not something that I own. It's something I need as well. Then I might even ask them how I can facilitate them giving me feedback, because I understand that might be difficult for some folks. You've got cultural variables, you've got past history in there. One thing that you do, Linda, that I think is really lovely is when early on, when you're trying to sort of set that expectation that you want folks to give you feedback, you'll give the opportunity, but then you sort of immediately start giving some examples from which they can choose, because it might be hard for someone who hasn't given feedback to an authority figure to generate their own responses in that moment. You might say, "For example, how's the structure of our agenda going? Do you like this item before this item or could we switch it? You've been taking notes and posting them here. Would it be easier if you just emailed them?" You give them a few things. Sort of prime the pump. I really like that. That's something that I've done. Another thing I do is give the opportunity to get feedback in every interaction. Even if it's brief. At the end of a meeting I might just say, "Hey, by the way, just checking. Anything I can do better? What can I do more of? What can I do less of? What do you need?" I want it to be at strength and just a common part of everyday conversation. Not that someone has to build up the courage to give feedback. It needs to just be as common as saying, "Hey Linda, how are you doing? And also, what can I do better for you?"

Dr. Linda LeBlanc (14:06):

Yeah, I agree. If you're doing it every time, it won't get inadvertently correlated with. We had a somewhat awkward supervision session and that's when you're going to give feedback or what have you. You can always give feedback and it's good stuff and the other stuff too.

Dr. Tyra Sellers (14:27):

I agree. I was just going to ask you. We have sort of laid out... By the way, listeners: There are actual scripts in the book around all of these conversations about feedback, because we are very mindful that a lot of folks haven't had maybe training or experience. So there's lots of great resources you can go to until you up your own repertoire of responses. Linda, I wanted you to kind of talk a little bit about the two core features that we've laid out around setting this healthy bi-directional collaborative relationship.

Dr. Linda LeBlanc (15:04):

Yeah. I think the two big ideas are creating a shared understanding of the importance of the relationship. It's probably not a relationship if both people don't think of it as a relationship. If one person's thinking it is, and the other person is thinking that it's a task on the to-do list: "Weh-woh". Something's not going to work as well as it should.

Dr. Tyra Sellers (15:27):

Right.

Dr. Linda LeBlanc (15:28):

So that is actively talking about it and talking about it in terms of how important it is that, "As the supervisor I'm your safety net". I'm going to help you learn these things and the path you're on is an important one. You're going to do all this good in the world and my opportunity to help you learn how to do that helps me do more good in the world. I like to anchor it that way in order to help them and to remind myself of how important the relationship is. That this just isn't the required number of hours that we spend together so that the paper can get signed. This is really the opportunity to learn how to make lives better. It matters tremendously how well we do that together. Then I think that notion that you start off and consistently managed towards a committed and positive relationship, and that means this matters. Even if we have a little bump, we're going to be in it together. We're going to figure this out and there's going to be a whole lot of positivity and smiles. Even if there are mistakes and that we have to behave that way towards each other. That really is about setting the expectations for how you're going to interact interpersonally together and with other people. This particularly if the supervisee is new to more professional contexts. Maybe they are in college or not in college. This could be a first or second job, could definitely be the first time when they need to be perceived as the key to unlock a healthier, more productive future for a human being. That's not small potatoes. That's responsibility. Really setting those expectations for: "You have to take this seriously. We have to help each other. We have to have absolute honesty and we have to be professional". We can't take the risk of, "Well, somebody got their feelings hurt and I'm not gonna say anything about it. I'm just gonna stop talking to you". It's way too important. Some of the expectations that are set that allow you to have that committed and positive relationship are about how you think about yourself as a professional. How you set the context of this professional activity above your personal thoughts, feelings, preferences, values, and why that matters and the right way to do that so that you still meaningfully exist as a person, but don't make it all about you. That really is where I think people have to sometimes be coached. That you can let what is great about you show, but it's not all about what is great about you. It is about the good you can do in this professional context. That comes along with some stuff like, "Be on time. Do it on time. High quality products, show up every day. Really ready to sponge it up, learn, grow. Bring your A-game and why it matters so much to do that. To just get every single thing you possibly can from feedback. If both people are doing that... It's also about the supervisor. Be professional, be kind, be nice. Be on time, for heaven's sake. Be present and welcome that feedback and listen to it. If both parties do that, things are going to go tremendously better than if either party drops the ball on that.

Dr. Tyra Sellers (20:27):

Yeah. I think you're absolutely right. I think around setting expectations, the burden is on the supervisor to set some of those minimum expectations, right? These are the things that I'm going to expect. As you mentioned, this might be the first professional work-related experience for some trainees, or people may have not had great structured experiences in the past. Just a few examples for listeners: What are you two going to do when someone needs to cancel? Right? Are you going to text each other? Is it going to be through email? Is it going to be a phone call? Have you exchanged personal information? If that's appropriate. Where are meeting notes going to be kept? What's your expectation around when an agenda should be prepared? Who's going to do it? Who's going to do what parts? Who's going to take notes? Where are they going to be stored? How soon after the meeting are they going to be stored? What's the expectation around deliverables? If I say, "Okay, Linda. I'll get you that article", and I don't get you that article that's a problem. Setting those expectations early, also for both parties, as you said, so not just what you're expecting from the supervisee, but what you think they should expect from you. It's essentially like each other's bill of rights in this relationship. If you're clear about those, you're also facilitating the likelihood that you can solicit feedback from your trainee and supervisee. I think even being specific about, "Listen, we talk a lot about feedback. Let me tell you a little bit about what I expect when I'm giving you feedback." Lay that out early on. When I'm delivering feedback, it's not a time to argue even if you don't agree with me and here's why. If you don't agree with me, that's super cool. Here's how we're going to handle that. If I'm not clear in my feedback, here's what you could say. You could say, "Oh, thanks so much for pointing that out and explaining that to me. I'm not quite sure I still understand what that looks like. Could you show me? Could we watch a video? Could you go over it again? Could you explain it in different way?" I think really laying that out for folks is important. I know we're talking about expectations and we're moving into some of the more specifics of the supervisory relationship, but earlier you were talking about really communicating the importance of the relationship and that it needs to be committed and that everybody needs to be on board to move this ship forward in a positive way. I wanted to share with people something that you said yesterday. We were talking about the inherent power differential that exists in a supervisory or mentorship relationship. There's no way to get around it and it could be exacerbated by a number of cultural variables and people's histories. You started to say that it's the supervisor's responsibility to even the playing field. Then you stopped and said, "Well, you can't even the playing field because there's already this inherent power differential. What you need to do is communicate that both levels are equally valuable." Both levels are equally valued and that people need to have that commitment, right? So like, "Yes. I'm the supervisor, but that doesn't make me more important or less important than you." You have to speak those words, because of the inherent power differential. I think having that conversation is a clear indication of a committed relationship, right? I just really loved that way that you described it yesterday.

Dr. Linda LeBlanc (24:22):

Well, thank you. I do think that's one of the most important things, and it can be something that it's a little harder to pay attention to that supervisee. It's very present for them that power differential, but we have to keep in mind. The person in power very often takes that for granted. There's so much happening in our society right now that's predicated on that.

Dr. Tyra Sellers (24:50):

Hundred percent.

Dr. Linda LeBlanc (24:51):

There is so much change occurring. Hopefully we keep that going. The notion that the person who is maybe a little higher in the hierarchy needs to recognize there could be some of that tension and talk about it openly, because it's too much of a burden on the other person to set. You just can't expect them to say, "Is it going to be okay if I make mistakes?" No. You, as the supervisor need to be the one that says, "Hey, we're here and you're learning. I know this is all new to you and that there's going to be stuff you don't know. The good news is that makes me valuable, because I might know that stuff and I can help you". That you really acknowledge that it's a learning process and that you embrace the role of teacher, coach, supervisor. That you say out loud to them, "I want you to feel comfortable bringing me successes so that we can celebrate and questions. And even if it's a struggle or you thought it might be a mistake, that's okay because mistakes are teachers. We'll tear that apart and figure out why it happened and figure out how to fix it". Really actively saying, "View me as your safety net", and then behave as that safety net and never punish mistakes, because that produces hiding stuff. That's the worst thing that can happen in a supervisory relationship. You've got to acknowledge that that supervisee is not going to be perfect and guess what the supervisor's not going to be perfect.

Dr. Tyra Sellers (26:54):

No, they're not.

Dr. Linda LeBlanc (26:54):

It's going to be like, "Show me, ask me, tell me, because you may actually do some things I've never seen before". That's kind of part of what is great as a supervisor is you get to learn and see so many different ways to approach the world successfully and make the stuff that's not quite successful yet a little better. That framing it positively. It's not a mistake. It's just not right yet. Guess what? The expectation is: "We're going to make it better and we'll do it together". I think that helps to create a healthy learning context, along with a lot of other strategies.

Dr. Tyra Sellers (27:43):

Yeah, I agree. To that point, Dr. Tim Carr uses this phrase that something is "susceptible for improvement", which I think is a lovely way to frame it. I also think that one thing throughout the book around collaboration is giving space for the supervisee and trainee to explore their goals, what they want, what they're fired up about what their expectations are. In fact, there's an activity to do that in chapter two to facilitate getting that information. I think a lot of people think, "I'm the supervisor. I know best. I passed the test. I know the task list". But you know what?Just like when we go to work with clients, we don't know their passions and their interests, and we certainly want to, because it will help us do a better job. So we need to make sure we're doing that. I think other pieces of that healthy sort of committed learning contexts that you're talking about is being present in the moment. Paying attention all the way to your supervisees and trainees. Don't multitask, don't be on your phone, don't be on your computer. You can buy those shoes later. Be prepared because that shows that you were paying attention. You don't want to talk about those shoes, Linda. Be ready. Paraphrase what your trainees and supervisees are saying to you to demonstrate that you are in that moment, listening. Be excited like, "Wow, that's a really great question", or "That's a super point. I never thought about it that way", or "I'm so appreciative that you're prepared and you have these great questions for me". Make sure that you're having that attentiveness piece and then make space for celebrating. Invite and celebrate different perspectives, diversity, learning about someone's culture. Learning new ways to do the same thing and get the same or better outcomes. Right? I think we fall into that. I do it this way because that's the way I've always done it, but guess what? Your trainees and supervisees are smart as hell and they bring experience that you don't have and you can benefit from. Not only that, they're going to make the experience for your other trainees and supervisees better if you're open to that. If you're open to hearing that feedback that maybe you could do that thing this way or here's a new way of approaching it, or here's an article maybe you've never heard of. I think that's really critically important.

Dr. Linda LeBlanc (30:20):

Yeah. In terms of how you actually make that space and welcome that perspectives on diversity. Again, the supervisor has to be the one to kick this off.

Dr. Tyra Sellers (30:38):

Yeah.

Dr. Linda LeBlanc (30:38):

I just view it as you want to create clear stimulii that signal safety and welcoming, and you want to kind of prompt. Share that perspective, share something that's important. One of the ways you can do that is to acknowledge, before you introduce a statement, acknowledge: "Well, my perspective is kind of like this. I'm thinking about it this way. This is important, this is important and it kind of leads me to make that choice. What about you? Do you have a little bit of different perspective on that?" That introduction of, "Well, this is my perspective, but clearly there can be different ones", really sets it up to be okay to talk about either, "Yeah, now I actually agree with what you said", or "I also thought about this" and if you are giving those kind of lead-in prompts for someone to give their perspective, share why something might be important, share what they know over time that might get to independence. I think it's just like any other teaching or behavior change that we do. If you don't create that stimulus control, get those prompts in there, fade them out and what have you, you can't expect it to happen. If you want it, create an environment that will actually occasion it, sustain it and keep that communication really free-flowing. I think either open-ended questions or framing things in a way that shows balance, right? Here's a way to think about it, but I'm wondering is there another way to think about it?

Dr. Tyra Sellers (32:46):

Yeah.

Dr. Linda LeBlanc (32:47):

I think it can really make it easier for someone to chime in.

Dr. Tyra Sellers (32:51):

I really love it when I'm speaking with someone who clearly is more expert in an area than I am and I'm nervous to share my perspective and they may say something after they've shared theirs. They may say something like, "So, I'm really interested or excited to hear your thoughts or your perspective of what you think". Then I sort of think, "Oh my gosh. They think I have something worthy to say". When you try to incorporate that, I think people are fighting their histories. They're fighting their internal, private covert events that are saying, "Oh my gosh. That person is so smart and I don't have anything interesting to add".

Dr. Linda LeBlanc (33:36):

Yes, absolutely. People have histories. Let me tell ya, no one has a perfect history with feedback, supervision, hierarchical relationships. It's almost like you have to assume that there are some negative experiences in the past of any supervisee and you find a way to explore that positively. That activity you mentioned before. The collaboration activity is really designed to kick off that conversation. If, as a supervisor, you've never thought to have that before. We already came up with the questions. You can give that to your supervisee, your trainee, and say, "Hey, think about these things and we're going to talk a little bit about that next time on both of our parts about what's your experience with feedback and what are you excited to show me that you are already good at? What are you excited to get some help on?" That notion of contextualizing: "What you don't do well yet is what I'm going to be excited to teach you one way or another". We're all coming out to the good here.

Dr. Tyra Sellers (34:55):

I think that you included a question in that activity that is something like, "How do you prefer to give me feedback?" Right? So it's literally in the text and then there are some examples: "Do you want a standing agenda item where you're prompted? Do you want to do it in an email?" Maybe saying it vocally to my face is a little uncomfortable. It doesn't say that in the text, but it has those options. I thought when I read your revisions to that activity, and that was added, I loved that so much because I usually do a lot of that stuff vocally. Right? Which is fine, but I'm not a nervous person. I'm fine with a little bit of discomfort. I'm a theater nerd. I don't have a lot of issues talking about things. I forget sometimes that giving people that private space to consume the information in text form, think about it, form their own response is so power giving versus me just vocally barfing it. Like, " Okay, Linda. How do you want to give me feedback?" And, "I don't want to give you feedback." We really loved that it was added in that activity because it's something you could do collaboratively, or you could give it to the supervisee or trainee. Have them fill it out on their own, where they maybe feel a little bit safer and then bring it in and review it collaboratively. I really wanted to point out to folks that that question was included. I thought that was super brilliant to have that in there.

Dr. Linda LeBlanc (36:28):

Well, you know as a professor for a long time, particularly doing oral comps and dissertation defenses, I've just had so many experiences where you ask a question that seems simple, but the person's just a little nervous and amped up and you can see that deer in the headlights. I think like, "Okay. Let's make this a little more multiple choice and get you going with that". Then it's like, "Oh right. It's the second one". Then it just really opens the gate. "For now I can show you what I know and tell you what's important." It really can. Giving those options. One of them is: "I might be a little nervous to get feedback, but let's chat about that and can really open people up to get past that nervousness.

Dr. Tyra Sellers (37:26):

I agree. I sure hope that folks find those activities in the feedback scripts that we've provided in there helpful. I recommend that when folks are looking at those feedback scripts to get out a piece of paper and rewrite some in your own words, because the idea isn't to be a Linda or a Tyra. The idea is to use these prompts to enhance your own probably already awesome repertoires. That's sort of the way I interact with those materials in the book. I read it and then I think, "That's really smart, but that doesn't have my stank on it. I wouldn't say it like that." Then I reword it in my own words. Just a tip for folks.

Dr. Linda LeBlanc (38:09):

Yeah. I would say one of the things that the overarching theme, maybe of the whole book, but certainly of this chapter is about maybe supervise or paying attention to how you're coming across. There's already with that little bit, or a lot of that differential, you might have to go the little bit of extra mile to be perceived as nice. Just "regular okay" still might be intimidating. So the things that you can do to just pay attention, to be welcoming, be pleasant, extra smiles, extra praise statements, pour it on. It costs you nothing and it gets you all the behavior change in the world. We sometimes are super specific about corrective feedback and then super general about the good stuff. Get specific about the good stuff: "Thank you so much for showing up right on time and prepared. I think you're really are going to get a lot out of supervision because of that. I can see the excitement and energy on your face and that really brings the same thing out in me". Say it. There is so much. Don't let that stuff become the background. The wallpaper.

Dr. Tyra Sellers (39:46):

Right.

Dr. Linda LeBlanc (39:47):

That's really what you're trying to get going in the beginning of the relationship. The first really month is about pour on the praise, pour on the positivity, set the expectations and anything that matches it, praise the heck out of it.

Dr. Tyra Sellers (40:06):

Yeah. I love that point to make sure that folks are pinpointing the things that they want to see more of. Because if you just say, "Hey. Thanks for being on time" or, "Hey. Thanks for having that agenda up". You're not really communicating the full set of responses that it took for that to happen and why they're meaningful. "You got your agenda to me a day early. That is really important because, for example, I get more time to prepare for it. Make sure I'm ready for you because I value this so much. But also that says to me how much you value my time and this relationship. And I really appreciate that. And I think we can be more planful and make more efficient use of our time when you have the agenda ready before." I love that reminder that we need to be using behavior specific language for all of the feedback including praise. Don't make those be the quick, "Great job, Linda. Thank you". But then I'm going to spend 15 minutes telling you what a s#*t job you did on something else. Right?

Dr. Linda LeBlanc (41:08):

Please don't do that.

Dr. Tyra Sellers (41:11):

No. Spend 15 minutes telling Linda what an amazing job she did on all of this other stuff and then make space for talking about the difficult things. But you're right. They don't need to be equal. Your scales need to be tipped much more heavily on the very specific, all the awesome stuff. So when you give feedback, it doesn't become this SD for like, "Aw man. Now all the bad stuff is coming". Right?

Dr. Linda LeBlanc (41:39):

Yeah, absolutely. Well, we've now covered chapter one and chapter two, which are really about kicking things off in a relationship. I hope folks will maybe listen in again because our next episode we'll have our co-author, Dr. Shahla Ala’i with us as a guest. We're going to be talking about that power of understanding your past relationships and influences in terms of your professional growth. So please join us again on The Lift with Tyra and Linda.

Dr. Tyra (42:16):

See you next time, all.